Letters of Recommendation: Who to Ask and How to Ask Them

Webinar Transcription

2023-06-20 – Letters of Recommendation: Who to Ask and How to Ask Them

Anesha: Hi, everyone. Welcome to tonight’s webinar. My name is Anesha Grant. I am a Senior Advisor at CollegeAdvisor and I will be your moderator for tonight’s session. Today’s webinar is, :”Letters of Recommendation: Who to Ask and How to Ask Them.” Before we get started, I just want to orient everyone with the webinar timing.

Uh, we’ll start off with a presentation. Our presenter will provide you with some tips, resources, and then we will open up the session to answer your questions through a live Q& A. You can download the slides under the handouts tab, and you can start submitting questions whenever you get ready in the Q& A tab.

Please only submit your questions through the Q& A tab. The direct messaging or the chat can get a little bit confusing. So please submit your questions through the Q& A tab. But before we meet our panelists, let’s meet one of our guests, Juliana. Hey, Juliana. How are you?

Juliana: Hi, I’m Juliana. I recently graduated from Columbia University this past May. And I’ll just be shadowing this webinar. And behind the scenes.

Anesha: Thanks. Juliana. Camera.

Juliana: Great

Anesha: to

Juliana: meet you guys.

Anesha: Thanks, Amanda. Okay. And then we will hand it and meet our presenter, Aaron. Hey, Aaron, how are you doing?

Aaron: I’m doing well. Thank you so much, Anesha. Um, so my name is Aaron Brown and just kind of a little bit of context and background for you.

Um, you’re like, why is this guy? Who is he? Uh, how is he qualified to talk about letters of reference and recommendation? Um, so I, I used to work on the admissions side of things. Uh, I was in the admissions office at USC, my alma mater for about 12 years, uh, where I read literally Thousands, if not tens of thousands of letters of recommendations over the course of my career, um, and then moved to the University of California system.

where I no longer had letters of recommendation, um, uh, but missed kind of a lot of what I learned from them. And now, uh, I work on the high school side of things, writing letters of recommendation. So, uh, have a lot of experience in this field and happy to speak with you this evening.

Anesha: Um, well, I’m excited to hear from you. I also have other questions about the UC’s. We’ll get to that in another session. Before we hand it over to Aaron, we do want to start with a quick poll. So, just for Aaron’s context, let us know what grade level you’re in. Preferably the grade level you are going to next year. So what grade level you would be in in the fall.

So the options are 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, or other parents, teachers out there. If you could put yourself under other, that would be preferable. As we are waiting, I guess, um, What is your preference between campuses versus like LA and San Diego?

Aaron: Good question. Um, so I spent more time on the San Diego campus, which it does have the benefit of being, you know, directly on the ocean, uh, which is nice.

Both have their fair share of hills. So I suppose it can be a challenge to get around. Um, but I definitely enjoyed my experience in San Diego on that campus. And then, of course, you know, with with USC, um, was, um, a very different experience, uh, in Los Angeles, for sure. If you want kind of the big city feel like you would get at UCLA, too, compared to a bit more of a suburban sort of experience at San Diego.

Anesha: I’m in the Bay Area, so I know exactly what you mean with the hills surprise you, they sneak up on you, um, but it is very beautiful, and I would also choose San Diego. But anyway, um, all right, I will stop talking. Our guests are going to be here in a little bit. Poll is done. Thank you so much for sharing that, Aaron.

Um, and just so you have some context, the majority of folks with us today are in the 11th and 12th grade. So actually evenly split between 11th and 12th grade. And then one, I think one possible parent and one 10th grader. So I think most folks are are primed to, uh, So I will come back a little bit later.

Thanks so much, Aaron. And please, again, feel free to submit your questions in the Q& A tab whenever you are ready. Awesome.

Aaron: All right, Ben. Thank you so much, Anesha. And great that you are here as 11th graders. This is definitely very timely as you go into senior year next year. And then, of course, for those of you that are sophomores and heading into junior year, in, in 11th grade, um, then you’re, you’re getting a bit of a head start, which is, is perfect.

Um, so, and if what are letters of recommendation, how are they used? Why are they used? Kind of, what is their purpose, right? Um, in essence, The college application as a whole is a chance to learn as much about you as possible in what is admittedly a limited vehicle, uh, to make a well informed decision on your application, right, and kind of assess your candidacy and your fit for that institution, uh, assess how you meet the goals that they have, uh, in their freshman class and, and how might you fit into that.

And help them meet those goals that they have in their class. And so letters of recommendation are really helpful tool for an admission counselor to get to know more about you. So your teacher reference letters are going to speak to what you’re like as a student in the classroom. And then your counselor recommendation letters are going to talk a bit about what you’re like outside of the classroom, but perhaps in your school context, in your community.

Okay. Um, you know, kind of anything else that we need to know about you. Help us kind of understand about, uh, you know, your school, those kinds of things. They also often provide really important contextual information to an application. Um, and so alongside your transcript, um, the counselor letter of recommendation provides some really kind of great information often about curriculum.

Right? Um, how does the rigor of your curriculum compare to other students, perhaps in the class? What are unique opportunities available to you? Do they limit the number of advanced courses you can take? Those kinds of things. Um, oftentimes recommendation letters can help clarify, um, if there’s kind of something going on, unique circumstances that may have affected your ability to perform up to the level of your abilities.

The reference letters might help provide some context there so that the reader kind of understands what was going on, um, and kind of, you know, compliment what you might say about something or kind of introduce it for the first time, depending upon if you’re comfortable or how much of that you want your narrative to be about.

They are, of course, required, um, for pretty much everything. All private institutions, um, as well as most of the kind of flagship publics. And so as I mentioned, the kind of my intro, they’re not required, um, not even looked at or seen, uh, at the University of California. So if you send a letter of recommendation to the admission office at UCSD, um, it will end up unceremoniously, um, in the trash.

So, so don’t send it to schools where it’s not necessary because they’re not asking for it for a reason, right? But for schools that are asking for it, it is a very. useful tool. Um, and obviously kind of how many you should ask. We’ll get to that a bit later, but it’s a pretty fair guess that, uh, most schools will require one from your counselor and then often at least one, sometimes two from a teacher.

And some of them are very strict about you will only submit two. So, um, yeah, Some only submit three. Others like, sure, you can submit more, etc. Unfortunately, so much of college admissions is the very unhelpful answer of, it depends. And so it’s going to require probably some effort on your part, looking at web pages to be, okay, well, how many letters are required at the schools I’m applying to?

Do I need to ask two teachers? Do I need more? Do I need less? Kind of helping you, you know, guide you through that path. So why are they important? Kind of what is the value add piece when it comes to recommendation letters in your application? I would say most importantly, it’s critical to kind of understand the admissions offices.

are really cognizant of the fact that they’re doing this work on behalf of their faculty at their institutions. So, you know, if you kind of think about who does admission at the graduate level, it’s all professors. And that used to be the case at the undergraduate level as well. Um, but, you know, kind of in the fifties, sixties, uh, they’re like, we’ve, we’re getting too many applications.

We’re also trying to do research. We’re trying to teach. We can no longer really do this. And so kind of the admissions field as a profession really was kind of created. Um, Again, outside from work that was being done by faculty. So as we’re reading an application, an admission officer is kind of really thinking about what is the student going to be like in our classrooms?

Um, and so hearing about what you’re like in the classroom now in high school and how you contribute in that setting, what’s the value you bring to that space? How do you interact with teachers and with your fellow students? Uh, it’s really important information. As the reader kind of thinks about, well, how might you interact and kind of contribute on their campus and with their faculty?

Are you going to be someone that their faculty are really thrilled to teach? And usually that reference letter can be a great place to learn some of that information. And the counselor letter provides different, but really in many ways kind of equally important information. Um, and so they might speak to the impact that you’ve made in your activities.

Or on the school community broadly, uh, you know, are you that kind of student who, when you graduate, the place is going to fall apart because you’re running the institution, right? Um, did you kind of create a lasting impact or, or leave a legacy because of things that you’ve done, um, as well as providing insight into the rigor of your curriculum, right?

And you’re looking at a transcript. You’ll see courses, you’ll see grades, and that definitely tells a reader quite a bit without knowing the context of what your school offers. What’s the kind of pathways that they look like? How do you perhaps you compare to other students? at your institution, the transcript by itself doesn’t give all the information that perhaps your reader might want.

And so that counselor letter can be really valuable in that context, right? Grades and test scores can really only tell a reader so much about you. And the kind of the depth about who you are as a student and as a person come from letters of recommendation beyond a transcript, right? If I were to look at a transcript or see high test scores, I can pretty safely make some assumptions as a reader about who you are as a student, right?

Like if you have a bunch of great grades and rigorous courses, yeah, you probably study well for tests and you prioritize, you know, academics as something that’s important to you, etc. Um, but how are you approaching that in the classroom? Um, are you the kind of student who’s always raising your hand? And maybe you’re not, but you really, when you do speak, it’s that effective kind of, you know, point that moves the conversation forward.

Like those insights, of course, you’re not going to get on a transcript. It’s also important, um, as a potential place to help explain any sort of like, again, issues or concerns, things that might raise a reader’s eyebrow as, as I’ve put here on the slide. So, you know, perhaps there’s a dip in grades in a particular year, but there’s a reason for that.

Oftentimes, a counselor letter can help discuss that. Maybe, you know, you don’t have as many extracurricular activities as perhaps some of your classmates, um, because you have a long commute on public transportation to get home after school, and you can’t really stick around for after school activities, right?

That provides useful context so the reader then understands, okay, well, I shouldn’t expect to see the same kinds of things here, right? So, kind of, all of that, contextual information to help build as complete of a picture as possible as to who you are and how you’ve engaged in and out of the classroom in high school.

That’s where we turn to letters of recommendation and where those are quite useful.

So who should you ask, right? Kind of the, the crux of this, uh, the important thing for those of you that are juniors, uh, something to consider next year, uh, for those of you that are sophomores. So typically it’s going to be, you know, a teacher that knows you best, right? That’s going to be the kind of person who gives you the best letter of recommendation.

Oftentimes, this is going to come from a teacher from your junior year because if you think about the timing, right, if you’re applying early decision or early action, that application is due November 1st. Um, and so if it, if you’re choosing a senior year teacher and they haven’t taught you before, you’re They’ve only really been interacting with you in a classroom for two months, two and a half months.

They may not really be the best person to kind of speak to who you are as a student compared to a junior year teacher who had you over the course of the entire year. It also doesn’t necessarily have to be a course in which you received the highest grade. Because you kind of think about that, right?

Like, if a course, you know, comes easy to you, you’re a math person, math is easy, uh, you know, you read the textbook, you go, you show up, you contribute in lecture, you do well in your test, and you get that A really easily, ultimately, what is that telling a reader? But maybe you’re that math person who struggles a bit on English.

But you go in and you ask for for help from your teacher and you seek extra guidance and feedback and then you kind of take that guidance and you go and you do a bunch of work on your own and the teacher is able to see that growth on how you kind of respond to struggle or setbacks. That’s actually probably going to be a better letter than the one where you just coast.

Because it’s a subject that comes easily to you, right? So, so don’t be afraid of a course where you’ve had to work a little bit, um, and where it may not be your highest grade because that actually might provide some really valuable insight, um, that they wouldn’t get otherwise. Again, it’s best to speak, um, to, to kind of stick to recent teachers.

Um, you would not, you typically don’t want someone from freshman or sophomore year, Um, Unless, perhaps, again, they’ve come around and they hired you again as a teacher in your senior year. Or maybe, perhaps, they’re a coach or an advisor for kind of a club that you’re a part of or something like that. But, typically, again, they want it to be from someone who has taught you recently.

Because they’re going to be kind of more, um, aware of who you are as a student now, at the time that you apply. Right? Also, it tends to be that as you’re getting kind of older in your high school career, especially junior year, perhaps is when you are entering really that kind of meat of the rigor of your schedule.

Um, and so they can kind of speak to how you’ve interacted with that challenge of all of these rigorous courses, whether it’s AP or IB or kind of college courses or things like that, um, in a way different than perhaps a teacher would that taught you as a freshman. It can be helpful. Uh, to have teachers related to a field of study, um, and you’ll actually see that some schools may require, uh, a letter from a certain kind of, you know, a math teacher or a science teacher if you’re applying to fields like engineering, um, or the sciences, so that can be kind of something to consider as well, um, and again, they may be able to provide unique insight into kind of how you plan to contribute in that field because hopefully you’re you’re doing well there and engaged in the course and the content um and kind of really contributing in the classroom in a great way and so they can kind of speak to you know how you might kind of contribute in the university setting in that same space.

I also always heard this kind of stereotype of like oh well I’m gonna ask my English teacher because surely they must know how to write Because, you know, they teach English. Sure! But it doesn’t have to be your English teacher. I’ve read plenty of not great letters from an English teacher. So, if your English teacher doesn’t know you, then perhaps don’t ask them.

Right? Or if you just didn’t get along or didn’t connect for one reason or another, you shouldn’t feel obligated to ask your English teacher for a letter of recommendation.

So kind of a common question that we get, and this is definitely something I think more for the sophomores and younger in the audience today is, okay, well, great, but how do I build that relationship, um, or maintain that relationship with a potential recommender? What are the things that I should be doing that is going to provide content for a strong letter of recommendation?

Um, the most important thing is to engage. In the classroom. Um, be a presence. Um, you know, memorable in a good way. Right? And you can take that too far. Um, but, you know, again, think back to the fact that admissions officers are reading this with that eye into how you’re going to engage in their classrooms.

Are you going to please their faculty? Are you going to be someone their faculty want to teach? Do you treat others with respect your teachers with respect? Because And you’re likely going to be doing that, you know, on on their classrooms or and or in their in their dorms and on their playing fields. Um, you know, character definitely matters, uh, in this process.

And it’s something that I’ve really kind of seen is that. intellectual curiosity and engagement is really kind of something that schools tend to key in on, right? And so if you can show that engagement and that curiosity in your high school courses, and the teacher really picks up on that, that’s going to provide them with some good content for their letter.

So, How do you do that? Raise your hand, ask questions, participate, get involved in the classroom discourse and dialogue. Um, you know, look for ways to bring your outside interests into classroom discussion. Um, you know, stick around and ask the teacher questions after class. Um, typically, you know, they’re, they’re teaching in a particular field, especially in the more kind of specialized courses you might be in, in, in junior year because they’re passionate about it.

Right? Like, you know, I think back to my AP US history teacher and how passionate he was about the subject. And so if you’re able to engage with them because you also care deeply about that subject, they’re going to be thrilled to have that connection with you as a young student who’s kind of perhaps, um, you know, sharing that, that passion or that kind of interest in the subject, right?

So kind of bring in those, those kind of outside interests that you have, um, in terms of how, you know, they might relate to what you’re learning in class and kind of show them that connection, show that you’re thinking about the content in a bit of a deeper level. And of course, you know, do well and turn everything in on time and be a nice person are all kind of important things, but I guess I didn’t really put them on the slide because I assumed that was kind of a given, but if it’s not a given, those, those things should be there as well.

Um, also if you have teachers who, you know, you have a relationship with outside of just teaching, right, so kind of you can form relationships, you can kind of build relationships if that teacher is an advisor. Um, you know, if they, you know, work with you as a, as a, you know, grade level advisor or they are an advisor for one of your clubs, their coach on one of your teams, right, they might then, because of that additional relationship outside of the relationship in the classroom, have some kind of unique perspective to provide in addition to what you’re like in the classroom setting when they’re writing their letter.

So timeline. For I would say overall, generally earlier is better. Um, so for those of you that were juniors, um, I would hope that you might have asked already, uh, if not, then do it soon, um, you know, ideally at the end of junior year before you go on summer break, because that gives the teacher the opportunity if they wish, and you know, they definitely, many don’t, nor should they feel obligated to do so, but some might want to start doing letters of recommendation over their summer break, because they’re free from their course loads of teaching, and so they have the time to do it, um, and so it’s kind of, And again, often you should be asking a teacher from junior year, so there’s really no reason to wait.

Um, and so you can ask them at the end of junior year, you know, I would really value your input. Um, I think you would provide a, you know, great insight into my application. I was hoping you might be able to serve as a letter, um, to write a letter of recommendation for me and my applications next year. Um, at the latest, I would say.

You know, right after school starts in senior year, um, if maybe you’ve kind of like, oh, maybe I’m going to apply to a different major now and I think it’s going to change who I might want to ask, um, or maybe teachers leave or, you know, sometimes that happens, right? And so you need to pivot a bit. Um, but definitely you do not want to wait until you’re like, oh, yeah, I’m applying early decision.

Oh, letters of recommendation Mid-October. They can do it in two weeks, right? Um. You wanna be, you know, respectful of, of that person’s time. Um, you know, to write a really strong letter of recommendation, it takes time. Um, you know, you’re looking at, you know, a couple of hours, right? And so to ask them late in the process, Hey, can you write a letter for me?

It’s due in a week or two, is just not really respectful of their time. And so they might say no, um, which is absolutely their prerogative to do so, uh, always. Earlier is definitely better, um, in terms of end of junior year is often the best time to do it. If not, then fall right away when school starts of senior year.

So once you’ve identified, uh, the teachers that you would like to ask, how do you do it? Um, generally it’s best to do in person. Again, it’s just kind of like a respect thing, right? Uh, acknowledging that this is something that, um, is often on top of, of their, Their duties. And yes, it’s kind of expected of them as a teacher for sure, but it is extra work.

Um, and so it’s, it’s nice to kind of acknowledge that by being respectful and going and asking them in person, right? So perhaps after class one day, you know, Mr and Ms so and so, I would really appreciate if you can, um, write a letter of recommendation for me for my college applications next year. Um, and then if they agree, Then, you know, follow up with an email to confirm things and provide any sort of relevant relevant materials if they ask.

And also I’ll let you know about kind of what types of things might be helpful to provide them as well. Um, Again, don’t just kind of blithely send an email be like, Hey, can you write a letter of recommendation for me? Um, again, we just want to be respectful of their time. Um, and the ask. And also you don’t want to necessarily write that email request or even in person that request.

Um, with the assumption they’re going to say yes, because again, they may not be able to say yes. Um, so, you know, acknowledge the extra time that it’s taking them, and, you know, thank them profusely for doing so, um, and it’s important to have a backup plan ready, right, uh, in terms of what you might do if, ultimately, they aren’t able to write a letter of recommendation for you.

And again, this is for teachers. Typically, you know, counselors, um, you know, think they know that it’s expected of them or kind of in some cases required of them. Um, but it’s still good to touch base with them in terms of timing and what they need, what you might provide them, things like that.

Anesha: Okay. We’re going to do another quick poll just to give Aaron a bit of a break. So it would be helpful if y’all could let us know, have you started reaching out to potential recommenders? Where are you in this process, especially given Some of Aaron’s tips around timeline. Um, so as we are waiting for some responses to go in, Aaron, I saw that you took a sip of water.

Um, so I’m going to ask you a question and just around, um, I guess the, the, I know, I know there’s not like an ideal, but what, you know, do you have an idea? a structure of an ideal letter of recommendation from a teacher that you’ve seen that stands out in your head? Like what did that teacher kind of do most effectively in order to advocate for the students?

Aaron: So I’d say generally, the really strong recommendation letters from teachers, um, provides and counselors too, honestly, but they provide specifics, right? So it’s not just kind of general statements about Good student. Nice kid. Okay. How do you mean? Uh, and so if they can kind of highlight, Oh, this particular assignment, I was really impressed with the way that this student did this, right?

Um, and so I’ll talk a bit in a minute, too, about kind of the information that you as a student can provide to their teacher to perhaps kind of jog their memory a bit about, Oh, yeah, remember that really cool project that I did or that one assignment that you said was really strong? Okay. Yeah, I really valued that experience from a learning perspective too, and kind of helping to jog their memory, but like really kind of specific examples about, you know, Things that you did as a student that stood out to them, um, that kind of really were, were unique in terms of how you approach the kind of curriculum or things like that, uh, growth that you saw, those are all really kind of helpful, um, things in a recommendation letter.

Anesha: That’s great. I love that. And it reminds me, I was with another AO, a CollegeAdvisor, and, um, They have said, Oh, maybe you should write your teachers a letter about like why you’re asking them to, um, write it and in the, in your, and I know you’re gonna get to this in the next slide, but just pointing out the specific projects, like helping them to remember what you were most engaged about can help them to write about you being engaged.

So yeah, the specificity is just really, really important. All right, we’ll go ahead and close our poll. So we’re kind of evenly split, um, here, uh, with, uh, 50%, about 50 percent saying no, uh, 33 percent saying yes. And the other kind of 20 percent saying, uh, they’re still deciding who to ask. So, uh, some folks might be waiting for you to let them know which way they should be jumping over the next few weeks.

All right. I will stop talking. I’ll be back a little bit later. Hand it back over to you, Aaron.

Aaron: Awesome. Thanks.

Okay, so to that point, um, once a teacher has, uh, or a counselor has agreed to write a letter of recommendation for you, um, what should you provide them? And how will that kind of help them write a strong letter? So, first it’s important to acknowledge that teacher letters and counselor letters should be different.

Which you would think is fairly straightforward, but, um, they have different purposes as a reader. You’re reading them to kind of glean different types of information, as I was saying, kind of at the very beginning, uh, you know, of the session tonight. So you want to provide them with different things.

First, teachers might ask you for a resume. Um, but honestly, it’s not really that valuable. Because a teacher shouldn’t really be talking about kind of extracurricular activities, again, unless they have specific insight to offer because they’ve been with you as that, you know, they were the coach or they were the advisor, or, you know, maybe they did, um, you know, happen to go to that game and they saw you score the winning touchdown.

But ultimately, the point of their letter is different. It’s about who are you as a student. in their, their classroom. Um, and so a resume then really isn’t that useful in that context. So if they ask for one, you can say, you know, you can, here, here it is, but I was hoping that the letter could really focus on, on more of what I was like as a student in your classroom, you know, kind of a thing.

Um, And so then this next point is really kind of critical, um, and that is put together a document, which, you know, is time for, from you, so especially spring of your junior year or even fall of senior year, that’s, it’s a busy time, but, um, it can be really kind of helpful, uh, put together the document that kind of gives them specifics, um, those kinds of stories or anecdotes from your time, In their course, you know, what did you most enjoy?

Whether it was a particular unit or particular style of learning. I really enjoyed, you know, the group presentations that we did. Why, you know, it’s always important to give that kind of that depth and that specificity beyond just I like this. Okay, cool. Why did you like this? What, what did you gain from that?

What was the value in that? How was that different perhaps than other things that you didn’t enjoy? Um, is there assignment that you did in the course that you’re most, um, you know, proud of? Was there a significant contribution that you remember? Was there a time that the teacher kind of really, um, You know, congratulated you for for an effort that you made in the class, and that stuck with you because you were obviously really proud and excited that they acknowledged your work.

They’ll probably remember that, but it’s always helpful if you kind of point that out to them, too. Uh, and so that can really provide some strong kind of content. Um, or to kind of jog their memory, especially because, you know, many of the kind of, you know, popular teachers, um, or those in a lot of those kind of challenging junior year level courses.

You know, the AP physics and the AP US history and the AP lit and comp, they’re going to get a lot of these requests. Right. Um, you know, sometimes I think in my particular school this year, um, has a graduating class of 155, I think are going teacher who wrote the most was was writing 15. Um, so that’s a lot, right?

So it’s helpful for you to kind of provide some some kind of content or things like that to help kind of jog their memory for them. So for the counselors, that is where a resume is, in fact, quite helpful, right? Um, Because they are talking more about the kind of big picture, who you are, what you’ve done, um, in and out of the classroom, kind of in the school context, outside of school, um, much more big picture.

And then so similarly, you can provide them with a document, but the one that kind of speaks to big picture things. Broadly at school, what are you most proud of during your time there? And it can be academic, and that’s great too, but kind of, you know, not in just that one particular course, but during your time in high school, what are you most proud of?

Um, are there particular, um, challenges that you’ve faced, you know, again, that contextual information, you know, Hey, like, unfortunately, my mom got really sick fall sophomore year, and I had to take on some extra responsibilities at home. And that’s why my grades dipped a bit, right. And that kind of invites further conversation, hopefully, um, from them to you about how they might address that.

Stat, kind of respectfully and appropriately, um, you know, in their letter, um, you know, what are you interested in studying and why, and hopefully you’re having these kind of conversations with them too. But oftentimes at, at, at public schools with larger caseloads, they may not have the time for that. And to kind of helping provide them some of that context will inform, um, you know, what they, what they write about.

So, we’ve been, we’ve spent 30 minutes talking about letters of recommendation. We have a whole webinar on this topic. Um, I’ve talked about how important they are and how I like them as a reader. Um, but how important are they really? Uh, they are important, absolutely. But will they be the reason that you get in?

No. Um, so, you know, I don’t want You to kind of fret about them because you can’t control it right after you’ve asked Um and provided that teacher and that counselor with the relevant information that they need to help write a strong letter There’s nothing more you can do about it. And I and I do think that admissions readers are They’re aware of that right like they’re not going to hold what someone says Um, or you know how overworked your poor counselor is against you In the application.

So again, they are read in context. Really, if there’s one takeaway about the entire admissions process, honestly, is context and how critically kind of important that all is. So they oftentimes help to reinforce What a reader kind of is already thinking about your application and perhaps things that they’ve seen elsewhere, again from transcripts or test scores, um, or from kind of how you are writing and kind of talking about your intellectual interests.

And then they read about it in a letter. They’re like, yeah, this is. This makes sense, right? Again, it reinforces things that they’ve already found elsewhere on the application. You know, you talk about all your activities in a certain field, and then your counselor kind of mentions, yeah, they’re really engaged in this field, right?

Again, it makes sense. It reinforces things. It’s very rare that I read a letter of recommendation as an admission officer. And it really changed my perspective on a student, positively or sometimes negatively, but that was very, very rare. Typically, again, they just reinforced kind of the rest of the narrative that the different components of the application, many of which you control, um, as a student, that those kinds of things were already being considered.

So, you know, again, they really, they do provide that useful context. That insight into who you are as a student in the classroom, how you engage in the classroom and in your community outside of the classroom as they think about the impact that you will make in their community and in their classrooms.

And, you know, it’s important to remember that the schools that require letters of recommendation for the most part are pretty residential, meaning that, you know, most of their students are living on or around campus all four years. And so they’re really kind of cognizant of the fact that they are.

Admitting not just students who are hopefully, you know, going to do well in the classroom, but like that are good people, um, that are going to respect each other that are going to kind of contribute, um, in a positive way on their campus that align with the mission and values of the university. Of their institution and recommendation letters are really kind of useful place for them to learn about that.

Um, and kind of, you know, how you again interact with with teachers and with your fellow students. And so that’s kind of a useful tool or kind of useful perspective, I guess. You know, within the letters of recommendation that as an admission officer, you will get when reading an application. Um, so this next slide, uh, is going to take some data from a survey that NACAC, which is the National Association of College Admission Counseling.

So it’s a group that consists of admission officers at universities and then college counselors in high schools. Um, the professional organization that I’m a part of did a survey of admission readers about kind of what are the most important pieces of an application. And so you can kind of see that here, and SAR is a lot of numbers and it’s kind of small, but you can kind of see, um, in descending order in that considerable importance column, what are the most important things in kind of, again, descending order, um, that an admission reader will look at.

And as of course, you know, you, might surmise, uh, grades, of course, are most important. This survey was also last conducted a few years ago, pre COVID and kind of pre test optional as a space. So I wouldn’t be surprised if the admission test scores that you see are fairly high now, um, or at that time in 2017 might have fallen a bit.

Um, which then might mean that some of the other things have commensurately kind of raised a bit, right? And so you can see there that the counselor and teacher recommendations, uh, are kind of, you know, In the middle, um, in terms of the considerable importance, but definitely rank pretty high in terms of kind of the moderate importance piece, right, where, you know, 40 percent of the readers.

indicated that those, um, council letters and teacher letters are definitely of importance when they’re reading an application. So again, to highlight the fact that it’s not the most important thing, um, we don’t need to worry that it’s going to be the reason that you get denied or excited about the reason that you got admitted, but they are definitely important factors in this process.

So again, any sort of last minute tips when it comes to writing or sorry to, uh, you know, getting these letters of recommendation? Um, I kind of hinted at it earlier, but first it’s absolutely okay if, you know, you’re at a public school or even an independent school where the counselor has a huge caseload and they just don’t know you.

It’s not uncommon that, you know, you might have, you know a hundred students, uh, or, or more to a counselor. And so you’re kind of wondering, well, how are they possibly going to give me a strong letter of recommendation? They might not. And that’s okay. Because again, readers understand that oftentimes, um, at most highly selective institutions, they’re reading by school group.

They’re also reading in a territory. And so they understand. What’s the average caseload for a public school kind of counselor in my territory? What am I going to expect from that letter? How is that going to be different than I might see a letter from another institution? And being sure not to hold that kind of to the student.

unfairly or to penalize the student for a situation that they have no control over. So, so don’t worry about that if you find yourself in that sitting. Often then it means that if the counselor letter is clear from a reader’s standpoint, they just don’t really know you through no fault of theirs. The reader will then turn to teacher recommendation letters as being a bit more important.

in that space. Because guess what? Regardless of the size of your high school, the teacher, uh, they know you pretty well, right? They see you every day in the classroom. And so those letters will just kind of take on perhaps a greater importance. Again, ask early. So for the kind of looking at the poll question, for those of you that said that you haven’t reached out yet, hopefully it’s because you’re, you know, in your sophomore year.

And that of course would be too early. Uh, but juniors, um, you know, if you’re going into senior year now and your teachers are. Still around and haven’t left for summer break. It’s a good idea to ask them now or set a reminder In your calendar and your phone to ask them as soon as you get back Uh, you know to school in august or september and then you know again for those of you that are on the younger side really make sure that you’re seeking out those kind of genuine connections, you know, with teachers, um, that you’re engaging in the material in the classroom, um, that you’re kind of showing them that intellectual depth and curiosity that’s going to help provide that content for them to write a really strong letter.

And That’s going to kind of, uh, you know, help in your admission decisions in a couple of years.

Anesha: Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much, Aaron, for that. Take a sip of water after talking for quite some time. Uh, so thanks so much for that. And, um, for our folks, that is the end. End of the presentation part of the webinar. Uh, we hope you found this information helpful and remember that you can download the slides with the link in the handouts tab.

Uh, we’re going to move on to our live Q& A. The way that it will work is that I will read through the questions that you submit through the Q& A tab and I will read them aloud so that Erin can hear them and have a chance to answer them. to give us an answer. And I will also paste them in the public chat.

Uh, if you are able to submit questions, you may have to log out, log back in and make sure you’re logging in through the link in your email. Um, all right, so let’s get started on some of our questions. Uh, the first question that I had for you, uh, Aaron was what should folks do in a situations where they have been transferred high schools a lot.

Should they prioritize? So someone said, should I prioritize the teachers at the current school or stay focused on my 10th or 11th grade teachers regardless of the school? So I’m assuming this is a person going into 12th grade.

Aaron: Yeah, that’s a good question. Um, Again, you want it to be, you know, whoever knows you best.

Um, and so that might be a situation where it is a teacher from your previous school. Um, talk with your counselor at your current institution if they’re kind of okay with that and can support that, uh, in terms of submitting. A letter of recommendation from a teacher at a different institution. Um, you know, I know that, that we deal with that at my institution.

Often it’s because teachers have left. Um, and so, but they’re still writing a letter for a student who’s there currently. And we make it work. Um, because ideally, again, you want it to be from a teacher who, who knows you. Um, if that’s just not feasible, then, you know, really engage with that teacher in senior year, um, because, you know, they can still write a good one, even if they only know, they only know you for a few months.

But, um, ideally, it would still probably be from someone in junior year, even if you’ve moved senior year.

Anesha: Um, this is an interesting question. Someone asked, is there a template to use? So are there templates? Should we be sending, you know, teacher’s templates for how to write letters? Should we? Should there be red flags if teachers are sending you templated letters?

Um, so yeah, I don’t know any thoughts you have about like the use of templates in this process?

Aaron: Yeah, I mean, that’s kind of like a hot button issue in, you know, college admissions, really exciting things happening around conferences in the college admissions space. Um, you know, it’s like a bullet point, okay, or not okay.

From a reader’s standpoint, as long as they learn something new about the student, the format is not necessarily that critical. But yeah, you don’t want it to be like a cut and paste kind of situation, right? Where it’s clear that, you know, they are just kind of saying generalizations that could be about any student.

And so that’s where, you know, hopefully, you know, Hopefully your teacher is not doing that, um, but as a student, if you provide them with some of that kind of specific information that I mentioned, like on a form that you can give them, that might help such that they don’t have to resort to kind of generalities, um, because they have some content from you that you’ve given them that kind of can be like, Oh, yeah, that’s right.

That was a really cool way that, you know, she contributed in class here. I’ll talk about that kind of a thing. Um, so, but again, if we get a form letter, I’m not going to hold it against you. It’s not your fault. Um, it just means that, you know, That opportunity has kind of missed a bit because we now don’t have that opportunity to learn a bit about you.

Anesha: Now I’m seeing, I think there might be clarification to it. Is there a template to use in also asking for,

Aaron: Oh,

Anesha: I think your answer was also appropriate and true, but, but yeah, separate, separate interpretation.

Aaron: Yes. No, not necessarily. Um, I haven’t really kind of come across a template that I’ve seen in terms of asking for a letter of recommendation.

Because again, ideally, you would do it in person first, where you’re just kind of having a conversation briefly, um, you know, and I would imagine, hopefully, this shouldn’t be too much of a surprise to any of the teachers that you’re asking, because it’s someone that you’ve engaged with, and I’m really connected with, and So, I’m sure there’s part of them that’s kind of secretly hoping that you might come and ask them to write a letter of recommendation for you.

Um, but, you know, no, I don’t think that there’s necessarily a template for how to ask.

Anesha: Yeah, I just wanted to make sure I was like clarifying the question. Um, thanks. Um, someone said, is it okay to request a visit to the college? So I think they might be conflating, but I know the answer to the question, but it was asked.

So I want to just put it to you to give a thoughtful answer to it.

Aaron: Um, yeah, I mean, of course. Universities would always love to have you come and visit. Um, and so if you want to reach out to to the admission counselor, um, for your area, I’m sure they would be happy to give you all kinds of information about how to come and visit.

Um, so I would say especially at private institutions, although also at many public institutions, you can find like who is the admission counselor for your region, because again, they often read by territory. And so that person is going to be the one who’s kind of most familiar with. you know, high schools in your city or your state, um, or your country if you’re applying from outside of the U.

S. Uh, and so often that person is on the website, so if you want to kind of reach out to that person, uh, and ask, you know, I’m really interested in attending your institution or applying to your institution, what kind of campus visit options do you have? Um, and they’d be happy to provide you with some of that information.

Um, you know, they were happy to show off their schools, uh, and to talk about what makes them unique and the application process and all of that. Um, you know, from an admission standpoint, we always loved welcoming students to campus because the students who came to visit, you know, had a better sense of the institution, um, and why they might be good fits.

And so oftentimes could kind of speak to that in their applications, that was helpful. Um, and, and oftentimes, you know, the campus does a good job of selling itself, right. And so kind of for students who come and visit like, Oh yeah, now this is my top choice, kind of a thing. So. Absolutely come and come and visit.

Anesha: Well, I also just want to clarify that you don’t have to like formally request it. You can just like sign up for one. Um, because I’m not sure if folks were nervous of like, you have to submit a formal request to visit campus. You could just sign up for a campus visit.

Aaron: No, no, no. And if you can’t can’t make it, that’s fine too.

You don’t you don’t have to by any means. Um, It’s expensive. It takes a lot of time. You don’t need to feel obligated to go and visit campuses. And I think one of the, kind of, if there’s a benefit of COVID, one of those was that a lot of the online tour options Um, we’re made much more robust than they were, uh, you know, pre 2020.

So, uh, in terms of kind of virtual visits and, and virtual options to tour our campus, those are definitely much, um, you know, better now than they were a few years ago. And so those can be great resources for you too.

Anesha: All right. I’m going to do a quick. PSA. So for those of you who are in the room not currently working with CollegeAdvisor, uh, we do have a team of over 300 former admissions officers and admissions experts like Erin and myself who are here and ready to help you and your family navigate the process through one on one advising sessions.

It is an absolutely overwhelming process and if you want to take the next step in your college admissions journey by signing up for a free 45 to 60 minute strategy session with an admission specialist on our team, you can use the QR code that is on the screen. screen. During that conversation, we will talk about extracurriculars, application strategy, discuss college lists and outline tools that you need to stand out in the competitive admissions world.

I will say as an advisor, I have actually read through letters that teachers have emailed me in order to give feedback, um, and, and help them kind of structure their letters. I try to keep the students out of that, but I’ve That’s a resource that I’ve made available. So I think there are a lot of different ways that CollegeAdvisor can support you through the process, not just around legislative recommendation, but in every aspect of it.

So definitely going to encourage folks, uh, to keep that in mind. If you’re not currently working with us, going to leave that QR code up on the screen and get back to the questions. Um, my next question for you, Aaron, is, can you differentiate what you feel like is a parent’s role in requesting letters of recommendation?

versus the student’s role in requesting letters of recognition and kind of nudging teachers, especially as we get closer to deadlines. And, you know, January 1st is kind of look at people in the face and they don’t see that kind of box marked box checked off on the application.

Aaron: Yeah. Uh, good question too.

Um, I would say first, like this should mostly be from the student. Um, you know, both in terms of I’m sure that the teacher would more appreciate it coming from the student. Um, and also kind of the same goes, you know, from the university side is they want students to be driving most of this process. You know, they understand, of course, that the parents are, are eager and are engaged, um, and will oftentimes have questions as well and that’s fine and they’re happy to help that, but ultimately the student should really be driving this process.

Um, and it’s also okay for the student to, to follow up if it’s, you know, Hey, I know just, I know we have the deadline next week. I want to make sure everything is fine. Um, it’s okay to come from you as a student. Um, sure the parent could, could send it if they’re getting really concerned, but also the other thing to remember.

Again, schools will generally be quite forgiving around deadlines for letters, less so for deadlines for the application. So for you as the student, if you miss a deadline, that’s an issue. But if your letters of recommendation trickle in a few days after the deadline, that’s fine. not a problem at all with the vast majority of schools.

Again, it depends, you know, all of that. So if you’re really worried because it’s getting close to the deadline and you see your teacher hasn’t submitted it yet, you can reach out to the school and make sure. Um, but you know, at every institution at which I’ve worked and where I have many friends working at other, um, institutions, Again, they’re not going to penalize a student for a teacher letter coming in a couple of days after the deadline.

Anesha: Uh, I have a question that’s somewhat personal, so I’m not, it’s not in the chat. It’s coming from me. Um, but, uh, how would you advise the student who feels, or family, I think, who feels like they need to be strategic about their letters of recommendation? So they want to send, you know, Mr. James and Ms.

Wilson to these three schools. They want to send, you know, Mr. Rochester and Ms. you know, Smith to these other schools. Is that kind of like strict strategy necessary? I think they, cause they’re playing it around majors and, um, you know, just trying to make sure they’re speaking to the right major for that specific school and things like that.

How, how strategic or, or like detail oriented do you feel folks need to be in thinking about who to ask and who to assign to which schools?

Aaron: I would say broadly, no, that kind of level of thinking is a bit unnecessary because hopefully you’re applying to at least similar majors across institutions. Often that’s going to have the greatest chances of you putting together kind of a really cogent and compelling application anyway, right?

Because if you’re applying to very different fields across different institutions, are you really going to be able to create an application that speaks to interest and engagement in that subject if You’re turning around and applying to something totally different, um, at another institution. And also, again, we want to be kind of respectful of your teacher’s time and effort.

So if you’re asking, you know, all six of your senior year teachers to write a letter for you because you think the different ones are going to contribute different things. Um, I don’t know if that kind of level of thinking is, is necessary. If you get to, you know, great ones from teachers that really know you well.

Um, also, certain, it depends on kind of what system your high school uses to send letters. They may not necessarily have the capability for that specificity. So then if you turn around, you’re like, Oh, well, can you actually just print this one out and send it? And like, that starts to get really complicated, kind of unnecessarily.

Um, I would say two strong letters, um, you know, from teachers that know you well. One of which hopefully is related to the field of study that you want to go into. Um, the only time that it might kind of go beyond that is sometimes again arts programs might be specific about wanting something from an arts teacher.

If you know, kind of, you’re applying to a program that requires a portfolio and an art letter and another school you’re just applying broadly to arts and sciences and your two other letters are fine. Sure, that kind of level of specificity, but broadly. Outside of that, I don’t think that’s really necessary.

Anesha: Um, this is not necessarily requesting letters of recommendation, but just about recommenders. Should you fill up all, if you have the option for six, there’s a school out there with six and I don’t know why they have it open, but should you, should you do that six? Should you keep it to two? Should you go three?

If you have the option to add more, where should you stop with the letters of recommendation?

Aaron: Yeah, that’s a good question. Um, it’s something I kind of. deal with, uh, quite often with students at my institution when they’re like, oh, well, I have the two, but this one allows three. So I must get a third, right? No, not necessarily. Um, from a reader’s standpoint, they’re reading a lot from, you know, if a school has an early action, early decision deadline, they’re going to start reading applications.

On November 2nd, actually, probably before that because students have already started applying early. Uh, and so they’re going to start reading on, you know, October 20th. Um, and they’re reading all the way through until mid March. And oftentimes they’re expected to be reading low end, 20 to 30 applications a day.

Uh, when I was at UC San Diego. It was 55. 60 a day. Now, they didn’t have letters of recommendation, so it was a bit different, but still. So each additional letter, you have to think, that poor overworked admission officer who’s reading 30 other applications that day and getting paid, let’s be honest, not that much, and is doing this over all of the holidays and missing Christmas with their family and everything and all of that.

Is that third letter really adding that much extra value to my application? Is it saying something drastically new? That has not been said before? Okay. Awesome. Sure. If it’s just a third teacher saying that you raise your hand and you do well in tests and that you’re a nice kid? No. not necessary.

Anesha: Um, how weird I left my question. Um, oh, should I, should you ask the same teachers for scholarship recommendations as you do for college, um, recommendations?

Aaron: I would say broadly, that’s a good strategy just because that person will have already kind of been thinking about how they want to kind of present you in a letter, but it might be a good idea to have a conversation with them about You know, sometimes the scholarship may ask, or they have specific criteria that they’re often quite kind of clear about on a website.

You know, we’re looking for, you know, if you think about the Moorhead Cane, right? You know, at North Carolina. And it’s like, you know, physical vigor is one of the four characteristics they’re looking for. It’s unlikely, perhaps, that your calculus teacher on your regular, uh, you know, uh, letter of recommendation has talked about how you’ve approached physical vigor.

Um, but it’s necessary on a scholarship application, maybe. So, it’s a good idea to perhaps have a conversation with them about, well, here’s how this letter might be different or things that are being asked differently. But if you’re already going to ask that person for one letter, presumably it’s because they know you really well and you think that they can contribute kind of to your application.

So it could be helpful for that person to be the same person to do the scholarship application.

Anesha: Can you, um, speak to athletic recruitment? Someone was talking about how to ask coaches to write letters. Um, specifically, I guess their high school coaches writing to colleges. Do you have any, I don’t know, experience in navigating that process?

Aaron: Yeah. Um, I mean, that’s a. Interesting. It’s a bit different. You know, I think, you know, if the, if your coach, whether in school or, you know, on a club team or whatever, you know, has a particular relationship with the university coach, um, yeah, sure. They could kind of reach out and say, you know, Hey, I have this student I think you should take, take a look at.

But again, broadly, you should be driving this process. Even the athletics process. Um, pretty much every institution will have on their athletics website, which, of course, is going to be a different kind of domain than the academic side of the house will often have a tab for prospective student athletes.

With some sort of kind of recruiting questionnaire that you can fill out. Um, and so you kind of, you know, clear, okay, I’m a perspective, uh, you know, women’s volleyball student, and then it will pop up and it’ll be like, okay, what club teams do you play on our high school team? Or, you know, how many digs and kills and all the volleyball stats.

Right. Um, and so then that, when you submit, it will go directly to the coach. Um, and then they can kind of go through that and then reach out. You know, if they’re interested or oftentimes they have the coach’s email address. And so you can put together your own athletic bio, um, that includes all of those stats and your transcript and have a little bit about, you know, here’s what kind of a student I am and submit that to them directly.

But again, that best comes from you unless the coach kind of has that relationship already. But like, I wouldn’t necessarily have a coach kind of be cold emailing other coaches on your behalf. Like, that should really be something that the student should be doing.

Anesha: Got it. I love that you digs and kills all your volleyball lingo.

Um, you took me back. You took me back. Um, we are going to thank you so much, Aaron. We are going to end our webinar there for tonight. I really appreciate you tackling all those questions. Thanks for y’all for listening tonight. Thanks for Aaron for also putting together the presentation. Um, that is the webinar.

We did hope, we do hope you get some insights on choosing and communicating with your recommenders. We also hope that you’ll join us for our future webinars. Later this month on June 21st. Tomorrow. We will have a session on choosing your path and selecting a major. We’ll discuss public versus private universities on June 25th, and I will be back on June 27th, um, to close out the month with finding your college match until next time.

Take care and have a great evening. And thanks again, Aaron. And thanks Juliana for for ghosting, um, with us tonight. Take care, everybody. Have a good one. Bye.

You’re good to go. Awesome.

Aaron: All right. Thanks. Bye, Anesha.

Anesha: Bye. Bye.